Notes on Revelation 17:7-18
Sorry for the delay in finishing this blog series. I was in Russia for over a week (including travel time from California) and did not have access to email the whole time. I have been struggling to catch up ever since!
I appreciate the responses and suggestions made so far. I agree with Kevin James that one cannot ignore the parallel between the woman of Revelation 17 and the woman of Revelation 12. What one does with that parallel is the challenging question. I am reminded of the time I had lunch with Josephine Ford, a Roman Catholic scholar (and author of the Anchor Bible commentary on Revelation). In the middle of lunch, she suddenly asked me, "What do you do with the harlot of Revelation 17, anyway?" She is a dear, sweet lady, so I knew there was no hostile intent, yet I realized that how I responded would be as important as the content of what I would say.
After brief thought I said, "I believe John was telling us that the greatest enemies of the Church would be inside the house rather than outside." She looked me in the eyes for a moment, then smiled, "I believe that, too. I’ve never been convinced by the Roman Empire interpretation anyway."
Her response indicates that she (a lifelong expert in Greek and Hebrew, etc.) saw the same connection with chapter 12 that Kevin and I have seen. It underlines the point that all institutions of religion are human attempts to respond to the revelation that God has given to the human race. As human attempts, all religious institutions are flawed and even capable of being "turned" to serve the opposite of what the founders intended. Profession must be accompanied by constant vigilance and careful attention to the words of Scripture. Revelation 17 projects that the great counterfeit of true faith at the end of time will have a Christian face. When that time comes, we will all hear the call, "Come out of her, my people." Rev 18:4.
Here’s the notes for Rev. 17:7-18:
17:7 angel. Angel of verse 1 explains the vision of 3-6a. carries her. She is in a position of temporary dominance (until verse 16). Religion controls the political realm, just as it did in the Middle Ages.
17:8 was and is not. Parody of God (1:4; 4:8, etc.). ascend. . . pit. See 11:7. perdition. The eternal destruction of the wicked. Book of Life. See note on 3:5.
17:10 one is. The seven heads are consecutive. Since John is the point of reference, the "one is" would be the Rome of his day (17:18). The five fallen kings would then be Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece.
17:11 eighth (head). The beast of the final crisis. of the seven. A rebirth of one of the previous seven heads.
17:12-13 ten horns. See 12:3; 13:2; 17:3-11; Dan. 7:7-8. no kingdom as yet. These powers did not exist in John’s day. with the beast. Time of eighth head, the final crisis.
17:14 Lord. . . kings. See 19:16-21. called. . . faithful. The saints, who are sub-kings with the Lamb (1:6; 5:10).
17:15-16 waters. . . sits. See note on 17:1. The Euphrates River represents end-time, worldwide political power. ten horns. See note on 17:12-13. hate. . . fire. This event is parallel to the drying up of the Euphrates River in 16:12. burn her. See Lev. 21:9.
17:17 God is ultimately in control of the events of history, including satanic actions (9:1-5; 2 Thess. 2:11).
17:18 great city. See note on 11:8. Rome was the Babylon of John’s day. End-time Babylon will be a religious counterfeit of gospel faith. See notes on 13:1-7, 18; 14:8; 17:4-5; 18:1-4. rules. Continuous present tense. The great city lies behind all opposition to God throughout history.
Dr. Pauline, you have been missed. I am anxious to read what comes up out of your notes and especially so with Revelation 17:18 and the understanding of the great city. As I wrote earlier, Revelation 11:8 shows that the great city is also the place where Jesus was crucified. Why would God cause confusion over what He called a/the ‘great city’? After all, it should be apparent that Israel today is not only a focal point in today’s politics, but the money of the world is also controlled by the elite of ‘them’ too, for ‘he who controls the money is also the one who controls the world’. And what’s really interesting is that a recent pole taken by the media (if anyone can trust them) and reported in the Christian News shows that the majority of Christians support Israel even though they have completely rejected Jesus Christ. My study also shows that Israel is the only one out of the seven major religions who lost their way to worship because of a war.
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Your statement under 17:10 that says that "John is the point of reference" is an assumption that cannot be defended in context. If John is, as you say, the point of reference for interpreting the prophecy of Rev. 17 or for that matter everything in Revelation then you must subscribe to the 'Historical Adventist view of prophetic interpretation; that is, everything of importance has already happened and all that we are waiting for is the 7 bowls of wrath and the return of Christ in the clouds. This perspective CANNOT be defended in the context of Rev. 1:1-3: This is the revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE (TO) HIM, to show to his servants the things that must soon take place.
Only those who will live through the final events described in this prophecy will understand the correct interpretation of the prophecy. No one who is now dead can possibly have had the correct interpretation of the prophecies in both Daniel and Revelation BECAUSE THEY ARE DEAD, and will not be alive to experience the fulfillment of those prophecies.
Therefore, the interpretation of the woman of Rev. 17 as being somehow related to the Catholic church or the Pope is impossible.
Yes, the woman of Rev. 17 is the opposite of the woman of Rev. 12. The Woman of Rev. 12 that gives birth to Christ cannot be the church because the church DID NOT give birth to Christ because the Spirit of Christ gave birth to the church. This same woman gives birth to the brothers and sisters of Christ (the remnant); the entity that gives birth to those with a righteous spirit (identical with Jesus Christ) must be the Holy Spirit-the feminine part of God. She gives birth to people who love the truth more than their own lives.
Consequently, the opposite is also true. Those that love lies and continue in them are given birth by the woman of Revelation 17, the Harlot, the spirit of Satan.
One final point: the first beast of Rev. 13 is signified by the 'wounded head', and it is commonly believed by Adventists that this beast is the Roman Catholic Pope. However, the Pope does NOT fulfill the requirements of this prophecy as the prophecy clearly indicates religious practices not religious personalities. There have been numurous Popes that have been captured in war; the Pope captured by Napoleon's General in 1798 AD is but one example. Why was he chosen? There have been lots of examples of time periods in Catholic church history where there has been NO Pope on the Throne of St. Peter for extended periods of time.
Question: was the main religious practice of the Catholic church (Mass and Eucharist) suspended when the Pope was captured in 1798 AD? The answer is, no. Those practices continue unabated today. If you discover the main religious practice of a major world religion that was suspended as a result of war then you will find the true identity of the 'wounded head' of Rev. 13.
Is it possible that current Adventist interpretation of prophecy is wrong because of a grand deception of Satan?
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Dennis:
I know you have been asked a couple of times as to what translation you use, but that certainly isn't my concern. What interpretive principle do you use? How do you come to the conclusions that you state? You appear to pick and choose what is what without any biblical basis for what you deem is this or that.
I will comment on one of your points, that of the woman of Rev 12 not being the church because this woman bares Christ and Christ started the church. First, the church goes back prior to Christ. Though the Greek for church is not completely identical to congregation in the Hebrew, the idea is compatible: that of the group of God's people called out.
Christ came through God's people: Israel. The woman is portrayed with the sun, moon and stars, all symbols denoting God as Creator. This Woman is God's people. God called out Abraham and called His people out of Egypt and Babylon. They are called out by God, thus His people, His church and this fits the concept of the Greek for Church, "called out."
The woman of 12 is the Church of the Creator who made the heavens: sun, moon stars....it is consistent with Biblical revelation and that should anchor the meaning, and does for myself and many, many others.
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Kevin J, I know this is not my blog, but I was wondering if you would be so kind as to give us an example of how you accused Dennis of picking and choosing without any bibical basis?
The one point you made a comment on is interesting but I see that this does not have any bibical basis. Not sure how long you have been an Adventist, but Adventists believe that Jesus was before Abraham as He said He was. (John 8:58) Also, the sun shines on it's own as does God the Father's Glory. The moon reflects the sun as the Kingdom of Heaven must reflect the Glory of God. The stars are the host of the heaven as in the beings of heaven.
Please notice the first verse of Revelation 12. This "Woman" is in heaven and please show me anywhere in the bible where the church was ever in heaven? And look at verse 17. Notice that this Woman had offspring (as in born of the Spirit) who do battle with Satan. Would you then agree that this 'offspring' would be the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ? (144,000). Also please tell me how a Church can have any 'offspring'? Wouldn't they still be called 'the church'?
One more thing: Just because the majority believe in a lie does not make it the truth. Fact is--only a few will have the real truth. (See Rev. 3:4) This alone tells me it must be wrong to follow the 'herd'.
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Kevin,
If the Woman of Rev. 12 is the church then how would you describe "The rest of Her offspring" in v.17? It makes more sense to me that the offspring of the Woman are the church, not the Woman herself.
Please compare Gen. 3:15 with Rev. 12 and with John 3:3,5. The woman spoken of in Gen. 3:15 is not the church or Eve because the offspring of the serpent implies spiritual offspring, not literal snakes. This would make the the offspring of the woman spiritual beings, e.g. the woman in this verse must be the Holy Spirit.
We see the same language used in Rev. 12. The Woman appears as a sign in heaven (not on earth), which implies that she is a spiritual being not a physical being. She is pregnant and gives birth to Jesus Christ (v.5) and also the rest of her offspring (v.17). This Woman is not giving physical birth to millions of Christians, therefore she must be giving spiritual birth.
Jesus in John 3 clearly states that in order to become a member of the family of God one must be born of the water (justification through baptism, cleansing of the outside) and of the Spirit (sanctification by fire, or cleansing of the inside). If we are to become brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ and sons and daughters of God we must be born of the same mother as was Jesus.
Jesus further confirms this in John 3:6; That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
I KNOW that God has both masculine and feminine characteristics (God is not male or female in a physical sense). In Gen. 1:26 it says that God made mankind (the nations, not Adam and Eve at this time)in his image, male and female. Just as Eve proceeded forth from Adam (Eve was already inside Adam when he was created) so to Jesus said that the Holy Spirit proceeds forth from the Father. The angel told Mary that the baby that she would carry would be conceived by two separate entities-the Holy Spirit and the power of the Most High. The Most High is the masculine side so the Holy Spirit would be the feminine side (Luke 1:35).
The reason our church, and most Christian churches, take the parochial view that God takes masculine characteristics is primarily due to the cultural climate of the religious hegemony of literal Israel. This is particularly true from the view point of the (so called) apostle Paul. Paul held women in great contempt, as indicated clearly by his writings, especially to Timothy. If our church observed Paul's teaching on the role of women in the church SDA conferences would never ordain women as pastors. Jesus, on the other hand, treated women not only with the same respect as men, but held them in equal standing with men in regard to religious practice.
Please let me know where in this I am 'picking and choosing' any of my interpretations. Just because I don't agree with your (or our church's) interpretation does not automatically make my interpretation incorrect. Thank you for taking the time to give me your feedback.
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Sorry for the lateness of my feedback, but I have not been to this site in some time.
So the Holy Spirit is being chased into the wilderness by the dragon? The Holy Spirit is being nourished for a period of time in the wilderness? The woman in Revelation 17, in the wilderness as the one in Revelation 12 is the Holy Spirit riding the Red Beast instead of being chased by it?
Please show me in Scripture where the Holy Spirit is portrayed as a woman and especially without strength against Satan. I think your interpretation is without foundation. And I am not supporting this interpretation because it is the SDA Church's interpretation, but because it is the consistent biblical identification. Consistently a woman is symbolically representative of the church, especially in prophetic portions.
At least that is my understanding. I think what you are saying is rather imaginary and without the foundation of proper and consistent interpretive method. But I may be wrong, I just don't see foundation nor consistentcy in your views expressed.
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The Hebrew words for spirit are feminine nouns. The word for the Spirit of God Xwr, transliterated Ruwach is a feminine noun. The word for spirit in Greek is transliterated :phneuma which is not gender specific.
The two articles of furniture in the outer court of the temple represent God's plan for restoration of righteousness that takes place on earth, note both bronze altar and bronze laver are used in cleansing. The golden altar in the temple was not a "cleansers" but was cleansed. The bronze altar represented Jesus work of restoration through His sacrifice. The bronze sea (laver) represents the Holy Spirit's work for the restoration of righteousness. First the laver itself is a feminine symbol. The bowl is a feminine symbol representing the womb. I realize that this may seem blasphemous, because this symbol is prevalent in goddess worship and witchcraft (cauldron). But I know that satan uses and corrupts the things of God for reasons we can easily understand.
Ex 38:8
They made the bronze basin and its bronze stand from the mirrors of the women who served at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.
When we consider all the bronze used in the outer court, including the altar of burnt offering, the bronze for the laver must be from the women who fasted, prayed and fed the men who were constructing the sanctuary. There is no other explanation for this directive other than to conclude that the laver was a feminine image or the feminine family member of the family of God.
The explanation of the woman in the wilderness is this. The crucial element of God's plan to restore righteousness to this world is His kingdom. It is apparent that without a righteous kingdom the will be no restoration of righteousness. Truth and the practice of truth is what makes the people righteous, without truth righteousness is impossible.
God had given the literal offspring of Abraham (Israel) two opportunities to accomplish this (see Daniel 9). Christ came during the final week of the 70 weeks to try a make His kingdom understand what was required of them and help them meet those requirements. Alas, the leaders stated bluntly, we have no king but Cesar. So the proclamation, see your house is left to you, desolate.
When the 70 weeks ended 33 Ce there was no kingdom of heaven on earth; therefore the Spirit of Truth whom the Father sent did not have a kingdom to teach and lead into righteousness. I am not trying to minimize the Spirit's role during the middle ages, only recognizing the fact that God was without a kingdom. The third kingdom was born out of the great disappointment, and the Woman came out of the wilderness to lead them to their ultimate goal, righteousness.
Matthew 25:1,5 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
Millerites, continue to wait. Note these are called the kingdom of heaven.
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Seven heads=seven ruling powers ruling at the behest of their god (dragon), who remains locked in the abyss at this time.(Rev.13:4)dragon gave his authority to the beast. The seven on this composite beast are the same seven on the scarlet beast. Was and is not but will come out of the abyss= When Adam and Eve submitted to the serpent (dragon) the serpent became the ruler of this world. When the Son of God completed the requirements to restore His authority, the dragon was locked in the abyss. At the fifth trumpet the dragon will be released from the abyss. Ergo: was, now is not, but will come out of the abyss. Seven mountains (nations)see Isa.2:2 seven kings (rulers). At the time of scarlet beast and the woman, five the seven nations have fallen, one is in power, and one will come to power finally. The scarlet beast is an eight ruler, but is represented as one of the seven heads. Ten horns=ten kings given power at the time of the eighth king. These 10 are a part of the prophecy of Daniel 2, they are the ten toes. Called, chosen, and faithful. Three groups of righteous people represented; which are 144,000, 5 wise virgins, numberless multitude. The beast and the ten kings move their armies against the righteous, but they are prohibited from harming them. Just as in the days of old, when an army would come against God's people. God would confuse the army and they would turn on each other and wipe each other out, so too here,verses 16,17. Chapter 18 gives account of this. The woman=the great city. This is the same great city where the two witnesses are killed (Rev. 11:8) ...where also their Lord was crucified. This narrows it down to one place, Jerusalem. Rev. 16:18,19 the great city was split into three parts and the cities of the nations fell. This very clearly indicates that the great city is, a city, for the great earthquake not only splits the great city into three parts, but the cities of the nations fell.
A comment on the proclamation "come out of her my people". [Jer 51:45
"Come out of her, my people! Run for your lives! Run from the fierce anger of the Lord.] Clearly, the purpose of the warning is to warn God's people to flee the city before He rains down destruction and plague. This is portrayed in the destruction of Sodom. Lot was warned to leave the city so he would not be killed. This warning is given to the righteous who live in the great city and they are told to leave so they will not be effected by the events described in chapter 18.
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